Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Carl checked in on Adolin’s first “real” duel in years, in the spiffy new dueling arena at the warcamps. This week, we return to Shallan’s slog across the wilderness with Tvlakv and his merry band, as she looks forward to meeting her betrothed… and getting some shoes.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here. Click on through to join the discussion.
Chapter 15: A Hand with the Tower
Point of View: Shallan
Setting: The Frostlands
Symbology: Pattern, Chach
IN WHICH shoes are withheld to increase dependence; Pattern turns out to be an excellent bug; Shallan’s appearance is deteriorating badly; she takes her courage in one hand and the knowledge picked up by Pattern in the other, confronting Tvlakv in Jasnah-like fashion; an unintentional Illusion proves useful; her feet suddenly feel better; dinner is upended on the cookfire; the potential legitimacy of nearby travelers is dismissed; and a stealthy departure is made.
Quote of the Week:
“Deserters ain’t like common bandits,” Bluth said. “These men, they’ve given up everything. Oaths. Families. When you desert, it breaks you. It leaves you willing to do anything, because you’ve already given away everything you could have cared about losing.”
“Wow,” Shallan said, looking over her shoulder.
“I… Yeah, you spend your whole life with a decision like that, you do. You wish any honor were left for you, but you know you’ve already given it away.”
Shallan doesn’t make note of it here, and I’m not sure if it ever consciously registers with her, but these have to be the words of bitter experience. It’s these little glimpses that (on a reread, at least) make the coming changes in Bluth so reasonable, and his outcome so sad. We’ll probably never know any more of his backstory, and it probably isn’t even a particularly interesting story, but still, it’s a bit melancholy to think that his story will just die with him. He once was a soldier…
Commentary: “A Hand with the Tower.” As we learned back in TWoK, the tower (three pairs) is an outright loss when you’re playing breakneck. Well, Bluth probably wouldn’t really bet on that hand… but it’s a fair hint that gambling losses got him to where he is now. He’s not gambling on the bandits, though; staying within reach of them would certainly seem to be a losing proposition.
Were it not for the redevelopment of her bond with Pattern, Shallan would be holding similar cards. Out in the Frostlands, alone with a team of slavers, carrying little of value with which to pay her way, perception is now a matter of life or death for her. (Of course, were it not for the redevelopment of her bond with Pattern, Shallan wouldn’t be out here in the first place. So there’s that.)
Anyway, it would be supremely easy for Tvlakv to either kill or simply abandon her, driving off with her trunk and whatever valuables might be in it. He needs incentive to take her to the warcamps; he needs even better incentive to escort her there like a woman of position, rather than a slave, or at best an objet d’art.
I find myself fumbling to express this, because the end result isn’t that much different: either way, she ends up at the Shattered Plains with her betrothed, and Tvlakv ends up with money. But Sanderson did a good job of making me realize just how important it is, on several levels, that Shallan give the appearance of being in charge of the process instead of letting it happen to her.
It seems like a dubious situation at best, though; very little money, neither a change of clothing nor means to acquire such, no visible means of self-defense—really, nothing but societal expectations to keep her physically safe. However… this girl has a Cause. And a Causal. And a Cryptic. Two very good reasons to get to the Shattered Plains, and one very good means of ensuring that it happens.
Other than the conversations with Tvlakv and Bluth, this chapter is mostly set-up for the next hair-raising events, as they attempt to put some distance between themselves and the bandits.
Stormwatch: This is the sixth day of Shallan’s travel with Tvlakv, Bluth and Tag; incidentally, it’s the same day as Adolin’s duel in the previous chapter. Which is really a bit ironic… He wonders if he’ll ever get to meet her, then goes out to the dueling arena and pummels the ever-living snot out of someone else for the sake of politics. Meanwhile, she limps around, with their betrothal as her only means of keeping promises she’s making to deserters and slavers, hoping to arrive in the warcamps in time and in a position to do something to save the whole world. Come to think of it, there is rather a symmetry going on here; both are stepping outside their societally-acceptable roles for the sake of something much bigger than themselves. Cool.
Sprenspotting: Other than the painspren for Shallan’s feet and the flamespren that scatter when Bluth dumps the chow on them, it’s all PATTERN! up in here. Go, Pattern! Oh, you tricky little Cryptic, you!
Okay, yes, I had fun watching Pattern in this chapter. For one thing, he’s getting smarter every time we see him. Along with his growing ability to know when people are straight-up lying, he’s getting quite the education in figures of speech such as, “Go see what he’s saying.”
(I snickered: “See… ?” I couldn’t help imagining him puzzling over how he was supposed to see the words—maybe like little cartoon bubbles in the Cognitive realm? I’m afraid I’ve stuck myself with an awful visual association now.)
Still and all, it’s priceless when he comes back and imitates every sound perfectly—the voices, the crackling fire—and Shallan’s first thought is, “This could be very useful.” Yes, indeed. So is his ability to make your dress look majestic instead of tattered.
All Creatures Shelled and Feathered: Chulls. More chulls. Large, noisy, slow-moving oxen-equivalents (if oxen had shells and were vaguely crustacean in nature, anyway). Chulls. No horses—which is good news in its own way, for now.
Ars Arcanum: Lightweaving ahoy! Instinctive, inadvertent—and timely – Illusion FTW! She may not know quite what she did, but we do. At first it seemed so odd that she didn’t even question the glow, the perfect dress, the healing of her feet—this is NOT normal stuff, yet she spends no thought on it, other than to instinctively let the glow fade. I’d cry foul with any other character, but this is Shallan, so it’s totally in character. Observations are all well and good, but if a thought might lead places she doesn’t want to go, she just… doesn’t think it. Mighty convenient little trick, that.
Heraldic Symbolism: Here’s Chana again, with her characteristics of brave/obedient and her essence of fire. Is this for Shallan’s courage in facing down Tvlakv? Otherwise, I got nuthin’.
Shipping Wars: I’m so looking forward to the scene where Adolin and Shallan each observe the other for the first time. Right now, the causal is merely a means to an end; it’s the one thing that gives her leverage to keep from being—or at least feeling—not much more than a slave. Still, it itches at me. It seems so… mercenary. I certainly can’t blame her for using anything she can to gain footing, but I really am eager to have the fun of watching the betrothal become a relationship instead of just a piece of paper.
Well, that’s all I’ve got for tonight. I’d love to hear some discussion of Shallan’s approach to confronting Tvlakv… (hint, hint). Next week, we’ll jump back to the boys on the Plains as Carl faces the Swordmaster. (cue Twilight Zone music…)
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. She has been a fantasy lover since the age of eight, when her third-grade teacher loaned her his copy of The Hobbit. (Thanks, Mr. Hamilton!) She’s also a full-time wife & mom with degrees in engineering, literature, and chemistry. Nice combination, eh?
So I’ve been thinking about Lightweavers, and where they fit into the Radiants. We’ve heard that there were various tasks assigned to various Orders, and not all Orders were warriors (it seems likely that Truthwatchers are not warriors, at least not primarily, while Windrunners are one of the primary fighting Orders). Shallan’s ability to disguise herself would actually be a very useful skill for collecting information, as she uses it later in the book when she scouts the Ghostbloods. It makes me wonder whether the Lightweavers of old were spies as well.
I had thought Bluth might become a more important figure, but guess not. Poor Bluth.
As I saw how quickly Pattern’s understanding accelerates, at first I was amazed, but it turns out that he’s just making up for lost time. He’s actually been bonded to Shallan for years, she just has this annoying thing where she “forgets” her past. So I think that Pattern’s quick development may not be as spectacular as I initially gave him credit for.
I do not have much to say; but I will try anyway. One of the major aspects of WoR is Shallan’s growth as as an individual. This growth occurs in different aspects: as a person, as a potential Knight Radiant, as a politician/courtier, and probably a number of others. That said, it is amazing to see how much Shallan has grown since she first appeared in the series proper in WoK. (I am not counting the character growth during flashback scenes in WoR.) I do not think the Shallan that came to Kharbranth could have survived her ordeal in the Frostlands.
With the possible exception of sentient spren, a colorable agrument exists that Shallan has grown (from a character perspective) the most of any character we have seen in SA.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)
So Shallan can only lightweave with detail without a drawing when it’s instinctual? When she intentionally does it without a drawing the result is blurry, vauge color.
Why do you think it’s good news that they have chulls instead of horses?
The way they view chulls reminds me of the way they view parshmen. Could chulls be sprenless too?
Poor Bluth.
@3: My guess is that, yes, Chulls are without spren. But I don’t think axhounds have spren either, so maybe only the ‘greater’ animals do.
And we have already seen that when she thinks too hard, things go wrong. Since she did this one without thinking, it worked better. Much like she does it with thought when first talking to all the Highprinces.
Re: Tvlakv (there’s a name that makes me go uh?) I think she did right. And the timing was right. He was just talking about her and her value. So in a way she catches him while it is fresh, and he can have the startled thought “Oh. Did she hear me? How could she hear me? Can she read my mind somehow?” So basically – guilt.
If the bandits had not shown up, and the trip continue for a few more days before she confronted him, the effect of guilt would be diminished. And some personalities need that type of direct confrontation.
Which Shallan would not have been capable of on page 1 of this book. She was not willing to confront the captain at first. Jasnah’s words keep being important during the small and great moments.
Bellaberry @3 – The good news is from Bluth’s statement that the bandits don’t have horses. Of course, the bandits don’t have chulls either, so they can move a lot faster than the slavers…
MDNY @1 – It makes sense that the Lightweavers would do any necessary espionage, though I’m not sure what that looks like during a Desolation. (Maybe there’s more strategy than I expect?) Not only the disguise skills, but the spren’s ability to function as a perfect recording device, seem useful. I don’t remember at the moment – have we seen Syl do that too? Regardless, the combined skills of a Lightweaver and her spren ought to make instant replay a Thing.
About Pattern… I spent large chunks of the last couple of days reading through a 17th Shard thread on which someone had collected every last WoB she could lay her hands on since WoR came out last March. (It’s no wonder I have a splitting headache – I spent way, way too much time on that! And I’m reasonably certain this commentary would have been better had it been written sans headache. Oh well.)
Anyway, one of the things I learned was a bit more about the Shallan-Pattern backstory. Not details of how or when they first connected, but the fact that they had progressed a long way before the fateful Red Carpet night. If I understood it correctly, they had gone far enough that Shallan was back then ahead of where Kaladin is at the end of WoR (in terms of the steps toward becoming a Radiant, whatever they are for these two Orders). There are ramifications galore to this, and it would probably be good if someone else went and checked my interpretation of what Brandon said. For the current discussion, it means that Pattern was at one point distinctly farther along the Physical Realm transition than Syl is. When Shallan repressed her memories, he retreated into the Cognitive Realm; once she called him back, it’s more a matter of remembering the skills he once had than developing new skills. She didn’t do him damage by breaking her Oaths, but she did rather leave him in limbo for a long time.
@5 Wet- I agree that the Lightweavers are good for espionage and I think they probably did function that way sometimes in the past- your point about Pattern’s ability to record conversations is on point. As for other spren, I don’t think Syl can “record” conversations like Pattern can, but I realized that she has already done some spying for Kaladin- in the last book, she spied on Gaz and Lamaril (or was it Matal? I can’t remember). So I guess all spren could spy, since they can turn invisible and most people disregard spren as being important anyway, but Pattern seems especially suited for it, with his recording ability.
Braid_Tug @@.-@ She does draw before her meeting with the high princes. In the palanquin on the way to the palace she draws a confident version of herself.
@5
Well, someone is going to have to infiltrate Mr. T’s inner circle and find out what is going on with The Diagram. A normal spy is not going to be able to get that close.
Not just espionage – Lightweavers have a lot more potential than that!
In the next few chapters, she will confront the deserters… and enlist them. Taravangian should be more worried than he is about that!
She can help people change into the people they need to be. Again, our various conspiratorial groups should be concerned.
She could influence a battle by making people appear in different places than where they are. Or imagine we are at the Shattered Plains and the Parshendi leap a chasm… only to realize they missed the ledge.
@1 If I remember correctly the quotes from Words Of Radiance (the book in the book) mention the LightWeaver membership as artists, poets, musicians etc. And their primary role seemed to be tied into morale.
They made people WANT to be better (as shown by Shallan a number of time throughout).
It is very possible they had other roles, including espionage and maybe diplomacy? guessing by their artistic membership and paralels to our world (where a lot of artists / poets are also diplomats) and the fact that Bondsmiths were too few to do it properly.
Plus, there’s another order that can Lightweave… and we really don’t know much about it.
WWJD, such a powerful thought for Evangelicals lately. I love the way Sanderson has played with this concept!
It is interesting how Lightweaving is similar to, but very different from brainwashing.
Shallan isn’t forcing anyone to change. I am not sure she would even be capable. But she certainly does strongly influence people.
I agree with the assessment that the Lightweaver’s primary role was as diplomats and politicians. They actually remind me a lot of Breeze from Mistborn, and the way that he viewed all life as a tissue of manipulations.
It seems that Shallan’s ability to “forget” is a hinderance, not a help to her bond with Pattern. Perhaps the epigraph that mentioned how Lightweavers have unusual mnemonic abilities applies to Shallan, but only with her Memories?
Perhaps her ability to “forget” actually isn’t from her bond, but a boon/curse from the Nightwatcher? Maybe we know so little of Shallan’s childhood because this is part of it and we’re not supposed to know about it, and of course Shallan conveniently “forgot” about her (with mom/dad?) encounter with the Nightwatcher?
I think her ability to forget is intended to just be a human coping mechanism. IIRC, Brandon got input from a psychologist friend to make sure he got the voluntary amnesia “right.” So I’d say the Memories are part of her bond, but the forgetting is a coping mechanism that has seriously impaired that bond. I could be wrong, of course – it’s happened a time or two. ;)
Given the Lightweavers relationship with perception (lies and whatnot), they might have had a PR/Propaganda role (“Be Strong! Knights Radiant Strong!”) or possibly logistical role. Maybe they’re the KR’s therapists? between them and their Cryptics, they’d be able to cut through any bull a KR would be telling themselves… And Soulcasting would still make food, after all.
I might be wrong here, but I vaguely remember reading that to be bonded to a spren/get magic in Roshar, you need to ‘break’. Taking what Bluth says about deserting soldiers into account… did Shallan just recruit her own personal faction of proto-knights, in the way Kaladin did with the bridge crews? If so, I see Gaz being very loyal, if only because it would lead to him getting his eye back. He has a whole THING about the ‘darkness’ of his reduced field of view.
Shipping wars:
So here’s Shallan, dreaming about reaching her beloved and safety… and him giving her a nice new comfortable pair of shoes along with everything else. Yet, what actually happens? She meets Kaladin, and gets a pair of shoes from him! Symbolic? You bet.
@16 RE: “I might be wrong here, but I vaguely remember reading that to be bonded to a spren/get magic in Roshar, you need to ‘break’.”
Everyone seems to think that, but that belief is based only on one brief exchange between Kaladin and Syl, unless my memory is failing me. To paraphrase, Kaladin protests that he is unequal to the task of being a Radiant (or perhaps a specific task related to that; I haven’t read the book in a couple of months), saying that he is broken. Syl says something along the lines of, “That’s what they all were.”
Now, most readers seem to take that to mean that KR require some kind of emotional/psychological breaking in order be initiated into an order. I took the statement as a general observation of human nature. The Radiants were all broken (wo)men because there are no mythical, perfect heroes among humanity. Everyone is broken in some way.
Well,Lightweavers would also be excellent at misdirection.Making the enemy attack a false army,disguising troop movement,concealing traps.There are quite a few uses for illusion.
Chapter 6
And from the back cover of WoR
Roshar isn’t the only Cosmere world where magic requires being broken. There is something similar in Mistborn.
Light and sound are both waves/vibrations and Pattern vibrates. It makes sense that he is good with imitating light and sound.
Hey Alice, would you be able to post a link to that 17th Shard page with all the WoB’s you mentioned?
Try this and see if it works…
http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7267-words-of-brandon-compiled-x-2/
I warn you, though, it’s a black hole. You may look up and find that several days have passed… Just sayin’.
@17: But later she tells Kaladin that his shoes were not comfortable. So it was an ill fit for her. Which in the long run is what I think Kaladin & Shallan would be for each other. Good friends, yes. But not romantic partners in the end.
@14: I think we are trying to overuse the Nightwatcher. Since we know so little about her, but two characters have found her. As Wetlandernw said @15, Shallan’s reaction is a totally human one. No greater spren intervention required.
@7: I know she does the drawing before the meeting. She had more practice with Lightweaving at that point. But I really think her subconscious use on Tvlakv here is what gave her the idea and the confidence that she could pull it off.
In a way, I still think that half of her successes with the Highprinces was subconscious. In the carriage Sabril tells her he thought she was basically older, prettier, and in a better dress.
She also makes one strong lasting impression with Adolin. And as we know, first impressions count.
@24 Braid_Tug: I’m in the Shalladolin shipping camp, but using her strong first impression on Adolin doesn’t make much of a case. Adolin has a strong first impression from a different girl every week.
Personally, I think the single most telling factor on the Shallan/Adolin ship is that she was able to get a genuine laugh from him. :)
Well, genuine emotions of any sort other than physical attraction. As you say, almost any pretty girl can get that; his genuine emotions have so far been reserved for his family. She takes him by surprised by expressing her genuine curiosity, and he responds by genuine interest.
Since I ship all three of them together, I’d love to know what the Alethi would think of those sorts of arrangements. I don’t think attitudes on either same-sex attraction or polyamory has been mentioned. I expect Brandon will get around to it sooner or later.
Considering everything we find out in this book, it feels ungrateful to ask for more worldbuilding details, but here I am.
Yes, there is mutual interest and, even, infatuation in the Shallan-Adolin relationship which could lead to a permanent pairing. However, the Shallan-Kaladin relationship, although initially antagonistic, evolves to one of mutual admiration and fascination. They are awed by the other’s character once they reveal their background, and soon find that their eyes are riveted on the other – even if done surrepticiously. It’s a smoldering relationship, as I mentioned, that could easily be turned by the author into a passionate one. What he will do with it is another matter – stay tuned.
The biggest problem I see with a Shallan/Kaladin union (aside from Adolin freaking out on Kaladin) is the fact that Syl despises cryptics. That would be the worst case of work interfering with family relationships that I’ve ever heard of. :)
Alice, to offer an alternative viewpoint, I think the most telling factor in the Shallan-Adolin relationship is that she finds him good-hearted, but not quite up to her level intellectually (to put it mildly). She thinks he is not too bright. Now, I’m a man so I may be mistaken, but I have the impression that self-sufficient highly intelligent women (of Shallan’s calibre) don’t usually fall in love with and marry men whose intellect they consider inferior, no matter how rich, handsome, or kind-hearted he may be. Or am I making too much of a generalization? I think her fascination with Kaladin’s intensity and her intellectual connection with him would prove more decisive, all things being equal.
Of course, I personally would prefer a Jasnah-Kaladin merger despite the difference in their ages. He may be the one person with the physical and intellectual atributes (not to mention the personal power) that she might respect enough to consider as a romantic partner.
@29 leiftinspace, you raise an interesting point. The sprens do have an initial antipathy for the other’s kind. However, so did Kaladin and Shallan initially. They learned to overcome that antipathy once they were forced into close contact and heard each other’s background (even if incomplete). If a romantic relationship does develop, they can always dismiss their spren’s objections by stating that it’s a human thing. Such objections wouldn’t fall under the category of oath-breaking that could sever their spren bonds. Perhaps Syl and Pattern can even learn to tolerate, if not appreciate, the other once they gauge their behavior and abilities. After all, we see them growing more humanlike in their understanding the longer they interact with their human subjects.
27. Noblehunter
Two husbands? That reminds me of the musical Paint Your Wagon – the only musical Clint Eastwood was in.
The problem with a Kaladin-Shallan pairing, is that while there is a lot of compatibility there, intellectually, emotionally, surgebinding-wise, etc, Kaladin is too honorable to betray Adolin. As long as Adolin is alive, it is going to be unrequited love, unless Adolin and Shallan have a bad breakup. Even then…
But that point about the shoes is interesting. Of course, she does give the shoes back.
Jasnah… I am not sure about. She is just a little too focused and a little too icy for me to see her with anyone right now. She gives me a vibe of “need a man like a sky-eel needs a bicycle” sort of woman. Still, Jasnah-Kaladin would probably start off rough, but does have potential. I half expect Jasnah to have materialized near Kaladin’s hometown. But probably not. It sounded too rocky for that.
Honestly, for some reason I want to keep any eye on Kaladin and the lady that was training the horses.
@27: Yep, it will be interesting to learn what the various cultures think about polyamory or same-sex parings. But I’m thinking Adolin’s status as future Highprince would put a social “no-no” on public polyamory.
Unless they have genetic testing and can prove that any child his wife bears can be proven to be his. Considering Vorin culture frowns upon sister & brother-in-law marrying – I just don’t see big open acceptance from that culture. The others? Wide open at this point.
@25: guess my statement could be taken as support of the Shallan / Adolin match. Didn’t really mean it that way. But she does keep doing the unexpected. So he finds her more interesting than all the other girls. With the extra bit in the back of his head.
@30: Okay, so Adolin is a jock and is not prone to snappy comebacks. But he’s not dumb. He is capable of learning. And he has proven to be a very intelligent combat leader and duelist. So his intelligence has been applied differently. Kaladin’s past as an apprentice doctor does align his intellectual pursuits more closely with Shallan’s scholarship. However I would not make this a automatic thing in his favor.
Honestly, if my husband and I were to compare IQ tests – I would win. He’s horrible at snappy comebacks or telling stories, and I am the bigger nerd of the two. But we suite each other and we balance each other’s weaknesses and strengths.
My bet is that Shallan will inspire Adolin to learn glyph reading. She might help him become more like her. He has brains. They have just been applied in other ways until now.
Now if was nothing but a ‘dumb jock’, and did not have any brains between his pretty ears – yes, she would move on quickly. But they have been able to have multiple conversations, with an easy flow of
communication and mutual entertainment. That is a far cry from the cute guy I had a crush on until I spent 10 minutes talking to him. I mentally resigned him to “cute statue” at that point, and found a more worthy crush.
If Adolin was dumb, Shallan would be very willing to move away from the casual.
Kaladin will end up with a bold merchant Thaylen woman who likes to travel with her pet larkin.
I suppose it’s more probable than Lift anyway. :)
I’ve avoided the shipping war discussions so far (although it is interesting to read all the speculation). Nevertheless, I wonder if Adolin is banished due to dispatching Sadeas, then will his absence open the door to further developments between Kal and Shallan. At least until Adolin returns. I don’t want to see the story play out this way b/c I’d like to see Kal and Adolin be friends.
birgit @21
And the Elantrians.
I also strongly suspect Adolin is going to be banished, or at least have to leave. But honor is going to Kaladin protecting, yet refusing to make a move on Shallan. Can he honorably hit on her, while Adolin is gone? And especially since Adolin is gone for doing the honorable thing to Sadeas. Yes, I think it was honorable – he was protecting his family and house and adminstering justice, even if it was vigilante justice.
I agree 100% with the above comment. Adolin will face consequences, though what he did was perfectly justifiable.
It will be interesting to find out what happens when Shallan finds out who killed her brother. I could see something like the following happening:
1. Shallan and Adolin break up because of what Adolin did.
2. Shallan and Kaladin start developing a relationship-thing.
3. Shallan publicly confronts Amaram (she hates him because she thinks he killed her brother, and he DOES take credit for it, right?)
4. Amaram no longer has an interest in hiding what really happened because he has already been exposed. When he finds out the Shardbearer was actually Shallan’s brother, he has an interest to publish Helaran’s true killer in order to redirect a powerful radiant’s anger towards his enemy instead of himself. Seems like something Amaram might do.
5. Shallan refuses to have a relationship with Kaladin because of this.
6. Sometime later, Adolin and Shallan get back together.
(edited for spelling)
Let’s not forget that for the time being, Kaladin is not in Urithiru…
@33 polyamory isn’t necessarily ruled out by the mores we’ve seen. Polygamy would workm, though polyandry would be problematic for the reasons you mentioned. Though they could adopt the legal fiction that all children of the mother are the offspring of the primary husband (difficult if some of the kids come out darkeyed).
I have a feeling if polyamory was common among the Alethi we’d have heard about it by now though. ShaKalodin would be a delicious scandal. Just think of the lies…
Re: polygamy – I’m confident of one thing: if it becomes important to the story, Brandon will deal with it. I have reasonable hope that if it is not relevant to the story, he won’t drag it in for the sake of inclusion.
Also? “Polyamory” is not a legitimate word, because it mashes together a Greek prefix with a Latin root. The term “polygamy” (from the Greek poly- meaning many, and -gam meaning marriage) includes both polyandry (one female, more than one male) and polygyny (one male, more than one female). Just sayin’.
Leiftinspace @29. Per Syl, Honorspren (or at least Syl) do not have a high opinion of Cryptics. Does textual support exist for the converse? I do not recall Pattern telling Shallan that Cryptics do not like Honorspren.
Thanks for reading my musings
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)
41. Wetlandernw
Isn’t it also true that polygamy mixes languages?
Not that it matters. English is famous for attacking other languages, dragging them down dark alleys, and rifling through their pockets for loose vocabulary.
Zen @43 – Nope. Both “poly-” and “-gam” are from the Greek.
Xaladin@38 although some of your characterizations are spot on I can’t see Shallan carring about Adolin killing Sadeas given her history.
ZenBossanova@43 lol
@above, yeah I don’t see her caring either, but the consequences could still do something to their relationship.
What I wrote is a basic idea. What I think is the most likely of what I posted is that Amaram will be how Shallan finds out Kaladin killed her brother. Perhaps Kaladin will be off-scene (in Kholinar, maybe), and he’ll get a hostile reunion when he meets Shallan again. Just some ideas…
Maybe Shallan’s involvement with the Ghostbloods will put her into some sort of confrontation of Amaram. That could get interesting…
Many scientific terms mix Latin and Greek. Scientists didn’t care which language it was, it just sounded “more scientific” to use long words taken from old languages instead of everyday Germanic words.
Bluth dies? I guess I should go ahead and read WoR to the end, I don’t seem to remeber it all that well.
@5 Wet, interessting about remembering vs newly learning the skills necessary to cope with being out of Shadesmar. I so far though that the passage out of Shadesmar caused the problem and not the world itself. … Doesn’t Syl remember having been bonded before? Or do you need to relearn the skills after bonding a new human?
It could also be, that Pattern learns faster than Syl because he is a cryptict and more logical than Syl who is more about emotion and honor.
@42. Andrew: I thought the spren-antipathy was mutual, but as stated above, I don’t remember WoR well enough, to search in for a quote in a reasonable time.
@49 birgit: Yes “we” mix latin and greek with german, but right now I can’t remeber if we mix them with each other. Do you have an example?
travyl @50 Syl remembers being sentient in the past, which is good indication she was bonded to another human once upon a time. That would be a great outrigger story, wouldn’t it?
Like you, I don’t remember WoR all that well so I may be missing something important. (I’m reading TEotW for the fifth or sixth time and it almost seems like a new story. It’s a nifty “disability” to have in some respects, even if it does come a little too close to Groundhog Day.)
If Syl was previously bonded, won’t she be damaged/insane like the spren that had their bonds broken? That is, unless her knight died without breaking the bond.
Here is a wikipedia page with examples of mixing Latin and Greek:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_word
@34: That could be a fun pairing. We don’t know her proto order yet, right? So Syl could like that spren better than Pattern. Anyone else really looking forward to the first Pattern Syl interaction? Since she was basically gone the whole time Shallan and Kaladin were interacting.
@41: :-) That reminds me of a joke floating around. Linguistic teacher expressing disgust when two students start talking about “polyamory.” But I can find it currently, so enjoy this shirt instead. Oh, and my spell checker agrees with you. It doesn’t like the word at all.
@50&51: My guess is Syl was more likely a “teenager spren” when the Recreance happened. So she was aware of what the adults were doing and how the bond worked between the other spren and humans, but did not take part in it herself. For whatever reason. I’m pulling the teenager reference out of thin air.
@50,51, IIRC, Syl/Pattern says somewhere that spren are sentient/intelligent in shadesmar & lose that during the transition to material world. They regain that as the bond progresses.If as you say Syl had been bonded in past, her radiant should die before recreance, or she would be a shardblade.
harry31j97 @55
Good point. We have heard about sentient spren in Shadesmar and that may be what Syl is remembering.
I know this is a very late addition to the thread, but I should point out that Syl HAS been bonded to a human before. At some point in tWoK she says to Kaladin ‘I’ve done this before’ (or something like that, I don’t have access to my copy at the moment). That seems pretty conclusive that she was a bonded spren in the old days of the KR, but obviously was not bonded at the time of the recreance thus avoiding being frozen as a dead blade.